Episode Transcript Michael Miller

McKenna [00:00:20] Welcome, everyone, to the very first episode of Health, it's personal. I'm McKenna. 

Sean [00:00:25] I'm Sean. 

Karen [00:00:26] And I'm Karen. 

McKenna [00:00:27] Together, we created Phronesis Health Initiative, which is a collection of online courses about all matters of health. 

Karen [00:00:33] What we found while doing this work is people connect with a story. So we wanted to use this platform to share those stories and have a bit of fun. We're educators, friends and regular people who had a lot of questions growing up, and frankly, still do. 

McKenna [00:00:47] This episode marks the first of our anxiety series where we'll be talking to medical professionals, parents, teens and young adults. Today, we had an amazing conversation with Student Success Coach Michael Miller. It was so great talking with him. He shares his experience with anxiety and helping others who are facing anxiety as well. Often students and how to be a successful support person. He talks about the challenges he faced growing up as a young gay man in a very religious household, and how, ultimately now, he's able to be grateful for those experiences. Despite having gone through enormous challenges and growth, he just has the best attitude, and we had so much fun chatting with him. 

Sean [00:01:27] No attitude, just gratitude. He is an avid reader for sure - I don't think I know anyone else who reads as much as Michael - and a lover of Christina Aguilera. 

McKenna [00:01:39] Woop woop! 

Karen [00:01:40] So Michael talks a lot about how he's grateful for the good and the bad. There's a lot of maturity and wisdom in being able to accomplish that, and sometimes it takes a step back in order to see how there's beauty in both the good moments and the bad moments in your life and how they shape your future. 

Sean [00:01:59] Interesting. Yeah. At a certain age, you kind of start to figure that out. But you it's kind of hard and difficult to notice it in the moment, especially when you're younger. 

McKenna [00:02:08] Absolutely. He talks about his morning ritual. He calls it a ritual, not a routine, not a morning routine. And he starts it off with gratitude, but also with other things that make him happy and start his day off in a nice way. I think so many of us wake up and look at the news first thing, check social media, 

Karen [00:02:27] Guilty. 

McKenna [00:02:28] Things like that. 

Sean [00:02:29] Yeah. 

McKenna [00:02:30] So I think it's so great that he starts off with such a positive energy. I know that I could use a lot more of that in my life. 

Sean [00:02:37] Same here, and I think that one of my favorite parts is just talking about, can it wait? 

McKenna [00:02:42] Yeah. 

Sean [00:02:42] What am I missing out on right now if I am not on that social media account at this very moment, you know, or checking my e-mails at all times. 

McKenna [00:02:50] I've been trying to wake up every morning and do something other than checking the news. I keep a book right on my bedside table like a lot of people do, and I urge myself to just roll over and grab it. So it's the laziest thing I can do to start my day off right is roll over. 

Karen [00:03:08] Well, and Michael pours into students all day long because he's a student success coach. And in order for him to be able to have the energy that goes with that work, he has to make sure that his cup is full. What are some things you do to fill your cup, McKenna? 

McKenna [00:03:24] Oh, okay. I play and write music, self-expression. Michael talks about how he's been playing the violin for like 26 years or something. How old is he, like 25? 

Sean [00:03:33] I think he's in his thirties? 

McKenna [00:03:38] When I was living in Australia, it's a slower lifestyle and now I live in New York City. So I make sure that I still have that balance in my day. So I'm exercising. I'm taking the time to cook a nice meal. I've worked in food and food writing. I love cooking, so I always try a new recipe. I make sure to set aside time in the day for myself because I know that I will perform better when I'm taking care of and I have the energy. 

Sean [00:04:02] Yeah, that's really important. 

McKenna [00:04:03] Because I know if I'm working from the moment I wake up until the moment I accidently fall asleep on my couch, you know, with my book over my face, at some point I'll burn out. So at least with this, I have some longevity. 

Karen [00:04:15] Yeah, that's super smart. Sometimes people do burn out when they don't take time for themselves. 

Sean [00:04:20] Karen, what about you? What do you do to fill your cup? 

Karen [00:04:22] So some things that I like to do when I start my day are just have some peace, you know, because once my day gets started, it's go, go, go. I'm a mom. I teach. I like to just walk out on the porch in the morning with a cup of tea and just my thoughts, but nothing about what I have to do for the rest of the day. And I like to make sure that I have time for each one of the people that I love. So making sure that I cook dinner with my husband all the same, to spend some quiet time in the car with Max after school, like those things fill me up for sure. Planning my travel. All that fills my cup. McKenna and I just always laugh because we need it throughout the day. So we'll send each other clips, some episodes of Jimmy or a show that we love and we just laugh. 

McKenna [00:05:06] Yeah. Usually she'll send me videos of Jimmy Fallon or something that we think's funny while I'm at work and I won't be able to respond, so I'll call her on my walk to the train after work and we'll just laugh about like the 50 clips that we've sent back. 

Sean [00:05:21] Awesome. That's really cool. Those are all wonderful things. 

McKenna [00:05:26] Sean, what's in your cup. 

Sean [00:05:27] What's in my cup? 

McKenna [00:05:31] Whiskey. 

Sean [00:05:33] I do like to play video games and watch TV shows and films, and I actually teach, you know, some film courses and humanities courses. So I actually really analyze these things when I enjoy them. And so it actually takes quite a bit of energy because I want to really be engaged. 

McKenna [00:05:48] I love that. 

Sean [00:05:49] I also like to do the tea. 

McKenna [00:05:50] Like spill the tea?

Sean [00:05:52] I love to make tea as well. I have tons of different types of tea, lots of different ways to make it. Same with coffee. I like to try different techniques. I will also go out and just sit outside and enjoy star gazing, for example, just maybe lay in the hammock. 

Karen [00:06:08] Awe, cutie. 

Sean [00:06:09] Try to zone out. Try, emphasis on try. Every once in a while I'll try to bake something because that's my kind of area of expertise. I guess that I enjoy it in the kitchen. 

Karen [00:06:19] Raspberry tart. 

Sean [00:06:20] Raspberry tarts. I also believe it or not like to clean. That really frees my mind for some reason and you know, put on good music and just clean something really well. And that's kind of an escape for me. It sounds strange. It's just because I feel like I'm in control of that. 

Karen [00:06:37] I used to clean to classical music and I felt like that was really, like, uplifting. Yeah. 

Sean [00:06:43] That's so nice. And then for anyone out there who is hesitant to try, yoga has actually been really great. You just have to find the right style and the right teacher maybe for you. 

Karen [00:06:53] Restorative. That's my style. 

Sean [00:06:56] Nidra 

McKenna [00:06:56] Just. Yeah. On the down dog app, I make my Shavasana like 20 minutes. 

Sean [00:07:05] Oh. Everyone's favorite. Aerial yoga where you're basically in a cocoon. 

McKenna [00:07:12] I've been waiting to try that. 

Sean [00:07:14] It's hard to find a good place that does it for affordable prices. Right. Build your own cocoon. You can install it. If you have a good beam, you just. 

McKenna [00:07:25] So with that being said, we are so thrilled to introduce to you the incredible mentor, amazing violinist and Christina Aguilera enthusiast, Michael Miller. So grab a cup of tea and enjoy. 

[00:10:07] [Episode Intro Plays] Health is understanding what you need, being informed, finding that balance of mental and physical, building yourself a support system, figuring things out on my own, and not letting it hold me back, you do kind of have to advocate for yourself, because health, it's personal.

McKenna [00:07:51] So, Michael, would you like to tell us a little bit about your background and what you do professionally as well as what brought you into that career choice? 

Michael [00:08:02] Totally. So currently, I work as a success coach for Arizona State University Online. So basically what I do all day is I have conversations with our online students, specifically who are attending Arizona State University through the partnership with Starbucks, who provides them with 100 percent tuition reimbursement. 

Michael [00:08:20] And those conversations, I mean, I never know when they answer that phone, where that conversation is going to go. Sometimes it's a simple thing like, where do I find my academic advisor, or how do I sign up for classes? Other times it's students that are really struggling and may have failed some classes and are doubting whether or not academia is the right fit for them or who do struggle with anxiety, depression, and don't think that they're going to be able to continue and just want to drop down and leave school. And so, again, it's a very wide range of conversations that I have with the students, but it's super fulfilling work. And there's not a day that I don't leave knowing that I made some small impact on the student’s life. 

Michael [00:09:01] The journey and getting there, on the other hand, was very roundabout. So you know, straight out of high school, I did a couple of years of traditional ground campus university. I think after my second year, I thought I wanted to transfer to a more prestigious or academically rigorous university. And so I moved back home but needed to get some income going. You know, fell in love with fashion retail, started working at a store called the Buckle. Fashion was always something that for me was really fun. And it's getting paid to do that. To learn more about it and then getting to start to teach others about that as I move towards a management position, which is something that was really fulfilling. 

Sean [00:09:37] That's awesome. 

Michael [00:09:38] Yeah. And I did that for, I was with them for seven years and a couple of different positions, probably two years into my first store was when the 2008 recession hit. And then right after that was the rise of Amazon. You know, the fashion retail that I had come to know and love quickly shifted into a dog-eat-dog sort of game of how to compete with each other for prices and was all about sales and promotions and cutting labor. And it wasn't really about developing people or having those conversations. And that's where I found Starbucks. Started working for Starbucks just as a part time barista. No big deal. Then went to Target, where they had just launched their visual merchandising program and again, was really able to kind of be at the forefront and create training and train every single new hire in our district. 

Michael [00:10:32] And again, it was all kind of about that, teaching others about something that I was really passionate about that really kept me going. But of course, after a few months, we're back to that game of retail where it was. How do we cut costs? How do we make it more about promotions? Again, it paid honestly a ridiculous amount of money for what I was doing, but I was so unhappy doing it. And so it was at that point where I was still working part time for Starbucks that I decided I wanted to go to ASU, and through that partnership with Starbucks. It was gonna be one hundred percent tuition reimbursement. The first class that I took was English 105. 

Michael [00:11:07] At the end of that course, she invited me to apply to work as a writing mentor. And that, again, was another really pivotal moment in my evolution, because then I was getting to that feeling of being able to teach others again, which again, in every job I've had, that's that's what's really kept me going. That's what's inspired me, is seeing other people, you know, challenged them, talk through, ask those questions, get them into kind of whatever their next phase is going to be. And so, again, it was just one of those kind of "aha!" moments. And like, this feels really good. This feels exactly like what I'm supposed to be doing. 

McKenna [00:11:40] So it sounds like you really found your fit there. And that's really probably a really good feeling. 

Michael [00:11:46] Absolutely. Kind of this feeling of chasing different retailers to try and find that right fit. It's just really been a dream, you know, and every single day I'm so grateful for the work that I get to do. 

Sean [00:11:56] That's fantastic. 

Michael [00:11:57] Again, that's kind of been my journey of getting from a place where I was constantly searching for that fulfillment. I'm one of those idealists who, you know, even if I'm making money, I have to have fulfillment in the work that I'm doing. I have to feel like I'm giving back somehow. 

Sean [00:12:11] That's really nice. 

Karen [00:12:13] That must be a lot of responsibility to be that support person for your students. What's that like? 

Michael [00:12:19] Absolutely. It's scary. I mean, to be honest, to know that the words that I say to a student may make or break their experience. You know, I think what I fall back on is that my job is to coach and not to advise, you know, so I'm not telling them what step to take or what direction to take. I'm just asking them questions about their experience and asking them questions about the challenges that they're experiencing and what might be the option for them to move forward. So my goal is to really, by asking probing questions to lead the student to their own conclusion and then support them through that. And so, you know, having to turn my direction into a question has been one of those kind of challenging things. I had this Post-it note that I have on my computer that says WAIT, "why am I talking?" Right. How do I turn this from something that I'm telling them to do into something that I'm asking them to reflect on? And they guide that experience. 

McKenna [00:13:16] You know, we've been talking a lot about anxiety with this podcast and how they communicate with other people and ask them probing questions to help them reflect on how they can handle their anxiety or their relationships. And I think asking that question that way is a brilliant thing. It's so simple. You'll never forget it. 

Sean [00:13:33] Oh, yeah. 

Michael [00:13:34] When I think, you know, for me, one of the strengths I bring into this position is I'm very comfortable with uncomfortable emotions. I mean, I have, as a store manager, had to have a lot of tough conversations with people that have ended in tears, you know. And so, you know, one of the things that a lot of coaches struggle with is silence. You know, when you ask a question, you're trying to get the student to think and to come to their own conclusion that silence is so awkward sometimes and it's so uncomfortable and you want to fill in that space with words. And that's not what it's about. So I think for me, allowing people that space to feel uncomfortable, to be honest and in touch with their emotions, because it's OK, it's OK to cry, hey, you know, it's OK to feel angry, it's OK to feel those sorts of things. But allowing people that space of silence from me, you know, and giving them the time that they need to come to their own conclusion or to wrestle with whatever they're thinking and not have to come back with something to answer it right away. 

Karen [00:14:37] I think that's a great point as well for parents, because sometimes we think we need to solve a problem or fill up the space about what our children really need in those moments is for us just to be there and listen. What are some of the issues that you find students are facing right now? 

Michael [00:14:53] Man, there's so many. It really, you know, there's a wide range. I think the one common denominator with the students I work with is that they're all trying to balance work and school. So they're all working some amount of hours, 20 or greater at Starbucks, and then they're all taking at least one class online, which again, is recommended 20 hours of work per class. You know, you're doing online. That's a 40 hour, that's a full time minimum commitment that my students are dealing with. Very few of my students work at that minimum 20 hour threshold. Most of them are working twenty five or more. And then beyond that, there's their personal obligations. So whether they're, it's family issues, you know, I have a lot of students that have young children. They're new moms or that they're expecting. I have students that are taking care of elderly parents. I have students that are 18. I have a student that is 60. So, I mean, the range of issues that these individuals are dealing with is so unique and so complex. 

Michael [00:15:55] Again, every time I pick up that phone to call a student, I really never know what's gonna be on the other end of that line. And a big part of what I do is try and connect them to the right resource for what they need. So for some students, again, it's a simple thing, tutoring. But there are so many students that I'm directing to the Disability Resource Center or to the 360 Life Services, which is basically a free counseling support that ASU offers for their online only students. And it's interesting. So there's actually another former Starbucks store manager that works on my team as well. And, you know, there is one week I think like a Tuesday or something, that we both send each other messages like and I'm getting so many e-mails from students right now that are just struggling with anxiety, with depression, with just all this pressure that they're feeling from everything they're trying to balance and to be successful with. So there are, you know, a lot of those just really challenging conversations. And that's where, you know, I think, part of what we have to really consider as coaches and as people who are supporting people who are struggling with anxiety and depression is how are we taking care of ourselves? You know, you can't fill someone else's cup when yours is empty. 

Sean [00:17:07] Yeah, definitely. 

Michael [00:17:09] So I think that, that's, that's been really big for me, is stepping back and saying, what am I doing self care wise to make sure that, you know, I'm kind of emotionally recharging at the end of the day so that I can come back the next day and help the next number of struggling students. 

McKenna [00:17:25] That's a really great point. You definitely have to take care of yourself so that you have enough energy to get yourself and whoever you're supporting through the day. What are some of those things that you do every day that make you more equipped? 

Michael [00:17:38] Yeah, that's a great question, and it's funny because in the past month, I have completely changed a routine of probably like 20 years. So part of my professional development at ASU, I took a course on LinkedIn Learning, and it's one of the first things they talk about is your morning routine or the morning ritual, you know, and for so many years, I would wake up and of course, first thing, feed the cats so that they're not angry. 

Sean [00:18:02] That's important. 

Michael [00:18:02] Second thing is coffee, you know, like get them situated, get coffee going for me. 

Sean [00:18:06] Also very important. 

Michael [00:18:09] Hah, yes, but then, you know, I would sit and start on my phone right away and checking my emails. And of course, every day I'm getting e-mails with the news. You know, as I'm reading the highlights from The New York Times, top 10 things that I should be worried about today, you know, and then after that, I'm going to log on to Twitter and I'm going to see, you know, some fun things, some cute animal pictures. But a lot of hate and a lot of anger. And that's starting my day every single day. 

Sean [00:18:32] Sounds very familiar. 

Michael [00:18:33] Absolutely. And I think we feel obligated to like we can't miss that e-mail message. We can't miss that tweet. We can't miss that Facebook post. Is that, you know, is it going to be there in 30 minutes, you know? Is that tweet going to be available in 30 minutes? Well, maybe. Maybe not. 

Sean [00:18:49] Oh, yeah. These days, who knows. 

Michael [00:18:51] But at the same time, what are you really missing out if you don't get to those things right off the bat? So for me, I have, I use an app free app called Insight Timer that has guided meditations and mindfulness exercises, and they have a five minute morning gratitude. 

Karen [00:19:07] That's great. 

Michael [00:19:08] So I listen to that now as my coffee is percolating. Keep in mind, this is happening at like four fifteen in the morning before I'm about to go to the gym. And so, like, I don't like going to the gym. I do not like exercising. But I know it's something that I need to do. I know it's important. But before I do that, you know, I pause and for five minutes, just close our eyes and listen to these words where it's guiding me through a visualization exercise and setting up the way that you interact with people moving forward with gratitude not only for the things in your life, but for the interactions you're going to have for the rest of the day. And at the end of that, you open your eyes and it's hard not to just smile. 

McKenna [00:19:42] Oh, that's awesome. 

Sean [00:19:43] That's really great. 

Michael [00:19:44] And so I started doing that and like probably two weeks into doing this, I kept waking up, you know, four fifteen my alarms going off. And I'm you know, I'm waking up and I'm excited and I'm feeling good. It's you know, hey cats, how's it going?! Getting the coffee going, feeling good about like, why am I so happy to be awake right now at four fifteen when I'm about to go to the gym, which I hate doing. And I truly believe it's because I switched my morning routine where that first 15 minutes of my day was filled with reflection and gratitude and thankfulness for the things that I have in my life and the impact I'm going to be able to make on other people versus spending that first 15 minutes of every single day with negativity and dread and, you know, all those sorts of things that I was tied to for so long. 

Sean [00:20:29] Wow. That's great. 

Karen [00:20:31] Michael, that's really incredible that you can be such a support for these students. Did you have that same kind of support growing up? 

Michael [00:20:38] That is another great question, and that is another emphatic no. So, I mean, my journey has been very challenging. So I grew up in a very religious conservative household. I was raised Southern Baptist. I really, I went to private school, private Christian school my entire life. And I was really either at my private Christian school or I was at my major, like, massive Southern Baptist Church. And that's really all the experience I had. I only listened to Christian music growing up. I only read Christian books growing up. My whole life kind of revolved around that. And at 17 years old, I realized I was gay. And, you know, with the Southern Baptist interpretation, the Bible, that's not OK. It's a sin, you know. 

Sean [00:21:22] Right. 

Michael [00:21:22] And so it's something that I really had to grapple with alongside just the normal teen angst. 

Sean [00:21:29] Yeah. 

Michael [00:21:29] Like growing up and getting my independence and all those sorts of things. So when my parents found out that I was game, they really didn't know what to do. You know, there were, of course, a ton of heated arguments. At that point, I was kind of like, who needs God, who needs religion, like I'm going to do me. And I, you know, that was kind of like teenage rebellion side of things. So they sent me to reparative therapy, which is well, you know, it's like ex-gay therapy, at 17 years old. 

Sean [00:21:55] Wow. 

Michael [00:21:57] Which is now illegal in most states, especially for minors. But it was a really challenging experience. And I think for me, you know, I wanted... I wanted to be Christian and I wanted my parents to love me and I wanted them to be proud of me and I wanted a wife and kids and the white picket fence and the easy life, you know. And I didn't want to have to abandon everything I had grown up knowing, and... 

Sean [00:22:21] Yes, definitely. 

Michael [00:22:23] Yeah. And it was one of those that it was so easy then to fall into the, the lives that they were telling me, you know, at 17 years old, I wanted to believe that that could be true for me, you know? And then I started working for them. So they had, again, like a youth division. And I work not just like a counselor by any means, but kind of it's like a peer mentor. And I remember we were sitting in a staff meeting and there was a young guy that his main means of artistic expression was color guard, which is, you know, doing like the flags and dancing alongside a marching band. And that was his passion, you know? And I grew, I started playing violin since I was eight. I've played for 26 years now. That's my artistic outlet. You know, through music, you're able to emote without being able, or without having to say what you're feeling when you can't put a name to it. So in that staff meeting, they said that they were not going to allow this young boy to practice his color guard because it was associated with being gay. Deep down in my core, I knew that that was wrong, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I knew that that was wrong, you know, and no matter what the world is going to say about the way that you express yourself, if someone told me that I couldn't play violin because it looked gay. Absolutely not. That's, that would never be an option. So to hear that they were not going to allow him to express himself artistically because of other people's perception, it was in that moment that I knew this was wrong. 

McKenna [00:24:02] Yeah, that's really shocking. I have been using music as self-expression my whole life. I can't even imagine if someone told me that I didn't do that anymore, you know? 

Michael [00:24:11] And so then it became this long journey of I had gone back into the closet. And I didn't want to tell my parents again. So I remember. When I was 17, having one of many very heated arguments with my parents about my homosexuality, and I remember asking them if you had a feeling from the Holy Spirit it telling you to kick me, your 17 year old, 17 year old son out on the street knowing that I have no income, nowhere to live, nowhere to go. You would do that without a question because of the feeling you have based on your religion understanding and without a pause. They said absolutely. And at that moment, something in me kind of broke. And again, my parents and I have done much work on our relationship, so we're in a much better place. 

Sean [00:24:59] That's good. 

Michael [00:24:59] But I will never recover from that moment. 

Sean [00:25:02] Yeah. I mean, it's hard to imagine coming back from that. It's, it's great to hear that you've made progress, though. 

Michael [00:25:10] Yeah. You know, and so again, at that time, after knowing that this reparative therapy moment, or this reparative therapy movement, was wrong, was ethically and morally wrong. I had to start really questioning myself. OK. So if I know, that I know, that I know, that I am gay. And that's that's like the one thing I know, and that I know that it's not congruent with Christianity. Who am I? You know, my entire identity was based in religion. And who I knew I was at my core was not compatible with that image I had built up for 18 years of my life. So I started reading a lot of philosophy. I started reading a lot about other religions and things, searching for who am I, what's, what's the right answer? Who has the answers? You know, and I took a very Rene Descartes approach of I think therefore I am. For me, it was more I'm gay. Therefore, who am I? 

Sean [00:26:08] Trademark copyright. 

Michael [00:26:10] But I really had to strip down all these different, different edifices that I had built up over the years and start rebuilding what I believed about myself and about the world around me. 

Sean [00:26:20] Incredible. 

Michael [00:26:21] You know. At 18 was when I was first introduced to Christine Aguilera, which um, huge part of my life. I am a massive fan of Christina. 

Sean [00:26:31] We were just talking about her earlier today. 

McKenna [00:26:33] Yeah, we were. 

Michael [00:26:34] And I am fiercely loyal, but it's because her album "Stripped" was what I would kind of call the soundtrack to finding out who I was. You know, people laugh about how fanatical I am, about Christina Aguilera. But those moments really saved me at a time where I didn't have really anyone, you know, and I didn't even know she was like a gay icon. And it's still like years later, I'm like, oh, like, that's why everyone... Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Her kind of legacy has carried me through so many different fluctuations and changes in my life. But, you know, when I look back on reparative therapy because I was absolutely angry and bitter about that for years, I mean my parents and I didn't speak for years. But now I can be grateful for that experience because as tough and as challenging and as tragic as that was, I would not be who I am today, as fiercely independent, as strong willed, as curious as I am today. If I didn't have that experience of having to say I know nothing, you know, and I have to start all over again and I'm going to completely rebuild myself and the image of myself and then what I believe to be true. 

Sean [00:27:47] That's huge. I just think this brings up a few different things that we've been talking with so many people about, and that's, you know, finding that way to get yourself through these moments. Music is a huge one for so many people, and it's wonderful to see how diverse that manifests itself within us. And it also is interesting because we've also been talking about building our teams right? Working together to help each other through these different moments, through our lives. And I think it's wonderful that you were able to reach out and find someone who was able to do that for you, even if maybe she doesn't even realize it. So if she ever listens to this, I hope that she realizes, you know. 

McKenna [00:28:24] Totally. 

Sean [00:28:25] You've already given us so many practical connections to our everyday lives that we can take away from this discussion and apply to our own experiences and approaches, such as the wait, you know, WAIT or just the the morning practices that you're, you're performing every day to start your day off on the right foot. Do you have any other practical wisdom to share with the listeners or anyone else out there of how they might be able to navigate difficult life situations? 

Michael [00:28:54] Yes. And this came from again, none of this is my wisdom. All of these are things that I've learned from other people. So, again, I want to give credit where credit is due. 

Sean [00:29:03] That's OK. That's how we spread this knowledge. 

Michael [00:29:07] But my success coaching team, we watched the TED talk that was about tiny goals. And, of course, he brought in the science behind it. And if you speak science about something, I'm gonna be like, all right. If you can back up your sources, I will question my-. 

Sean [00:29:21] Same here. 

Michael [00:29:21] My internalized beliefs. 

Sean [00:29:23] Yes. 

Michael [00:29:24] So in this TED talk, you know, that's what he really was getting down to the science of if you're trying to change a habit or create a new habit, you can't focus on these big goals. And I'm going to work out every single day or I'm going to quit smoking or whatever that big goal is. It's what can I control in the next 24 hours to move me one step further? 

Sean [00:29:44] I love that. 

Michael [00:29:44] And even smaller than that. Sometimes it's what can I do in this moment to help me move one step forward? So the way I've started framing this with students, we kind of take one or two approaches depending on the scenario that they're talking about. One is zooming out. And one is zooming in. We talk a lot about motivation. You know, like, why are you going to school? What's the end goal with your degree? And that's all well and good. For most of the time, but in those extreme cases, when a student is just like I have had it, I am dying. This is not worth it. I'm exhausted. I'm quitting. Digging into the negative motivation has really been incredibly powerful. So let's take a student that might be struggling in a class and deal with procrastination and time management and just not feeling motivated to do this assignment. So the way that we would zoom out is we start with the local. So, OK. What would happen if you don't sit down and complete this assignment on time? Well, I'm probably going to get a bad grade in class. OK. So we zoom out. So what's going to happen if you get a bad grade in this class? Well, it's going to affect my GPA. I might go on probation or get disqualified. So we zoom out again. OK. So what's going to happen? What's the effect if you're disqualified and you can't attend classes for a year? Well, I'm probably gonna lose my, my motivation, and not want to come back. OK. Let's zoom out again. What's your life going to look like in three to five years if you don't have this degree? And in that moment where you take students from, I do not want to do this assignment for one hour of my life into, holy crap. If I don't get this degree, I'm going to be stuck in this minimum wage job, working multiple jobs, you know, like. And so it's helping them alter their perspective from focusing in on something super tiny into what is the major... Consequence if I don't follow through on this one small thing. 

Sean [00:31:42] Right. 

Michael [00:31:43] So from then. 

Sean [00:31:44] The big picture. 

Michael [00:31:45] When you take it back from something so big, say it's going to affect their life, into: so now tell me, how do you feel about, you know, giving an hour of your life to complete that assignment on time? 

Sean [00:31:54] Do your annotated bibliography. 

McKenna [00:31:56] Yeah. 

Michael [00:31:57] Nine times out of ten. They're like, they're like, I need to hang up and get to work right now so. 

Sean [00:32:01] I can't talk to you anymore, Michael. 

Michael [00:32:03] Yeah. So that's that. Zooming out. And then on the other hand, is the zooming in. So this is when students, you know, are trying to do something really big, like get a degree or I'll use an example from my own life right now. I'm trying to quit smoking. That's a habit I've had for 16 years. And so for me, you know, I've tried a couple of times in the past, but the idea of never smoking again is so daunting that it's hard to make a step forward. Like, you feel frozen in that moment that, oh, my God, I will never complete that task. Like it's so huge. I've done this for so long. It's such a part of who I am. 

Sean [00:32:40] True, true. 

Michael [00:32:40] So then from there, it's zooming in. So, OK, let's put away this pressure of I'm never going to smoke again into what can I control in the next 24 hours, you know, and then from there, zooming in a little bit further into... All right. I'm having a craving right now where I know I want to go smoke. I'm not worried about that next craving. I'm not worried about not, not smoking tomorrow. I'm not worried about never smoking again. I'm focusing on I'm going to get through this one craving, so you're getting from this huge, daunting task into this tiny, tiny moment of, my body is going to feel angry at me for two to three minutes. But if I can find something, whether it's a walking meditation or talking to a friend or, you know, it's something to take myself out of that moment and just say it's only this one moment, that's all I have to conquer. The more I can do that over and over again, I quit smoking. 

Sean [00:33:31] Yeah. 

Michael [00:33:31] For a student, it's very similar where, you know, if I say what's, what's your week one goal? Well, I want to graduate and get my degree. Cool. So let's zoom in a little bit from this massive goal into what is it going to take? Well, first, you have to pass this class. What can you control in the next 24 hours? What can you contribute? What can you do to take one step forward just in the next 24 hours? And then once that time is done, let's talk about the next 24 hours and move forward from there. 

McKenna [00:33:57] That's a really great point. I know that a lot of students face anxiety because they do have a hard time seeing the larger and the smaller picture, and it feels so overwhelming. I know that I had problems with that when I was a student. I also used to have really bad social anxiety. And I, I do still sometimes, and I remember it being all about perspective, that I would have an event to go to or I would go to talk to someone and I would have to remind myself, what's the worst thing that can happen? So I would think, OK, I'm getting to the end of this event and I didn't have a great time or I had this awkward social interaction. And that's the worst thing that can happen, and probably never see that person again, or even if I do. Zooming out. How is this actually going to impact my life? You know, in the grand scheme of things, it's usually in not a huge way. And I know reminding yourself of that can be a big part of how you get through those moments that feel really significant. So that's really great advice. 

Sean [00:34:56] I definitely agree. 

Karen [00:34:58] So I remember someone told me something once about how to realize that something is small and in the grand scheme of your life. So you ask a student, for example, or someone who doesn't like high school or feels like this year's really challenging, you say, how many years do you think that you're going to live? And so if the answer's 100, then you put 100 tallies down on a piece of paper and you take a year or five years and you kind of block that off to show like this is, this is like the season that you're in right now. But this is what the rest of your life is going to look like. And you can see the other 80 tallies on that piece of paper. And it's not to discount what you're going through right now, but it's just to put it in perspective so that you can see that this is a blip in time and things will get better. And one day you're going to be this thing that you want to be, or do this thing that you want to do. And that's what the rest of your life is going to look like. 

Sean [00:35:56] That's really cool. 

Michael [00:35:57] And it's hard you know, it's hard to take yourself out of your feelings and to rationalize with yourself. I always say, you know, every student's experience is so different, you know, and what, they struggle with is so unique to who they are and to where they come from and their cultural underpinnings. I mean, there's so many factors that go into dealing with anxiety and dealing with depression or any sort of mental health issue at all. The one common factor, I think, is reaching out and asking for help, because until you do that, you're going to remain isolated, and whatever that feeling is, but having that good support system, having a person that when you're in that moment and you feel like I can not do this. You have that person that can ask you. All right. Let's zoom out, you know, or let's zoom in and let's talk about that. 

Sean [00:36:45] Yeah. 

Michael [00:36:46] What I think makes me most grateful for the work that you're doing, you know, because you are providing a support system for someone that doesn't have access to that. 

Sean [00:36:56] Right. 

McKenna [00:36:57] That's awesome. This has been so inspiring, Michael, I think we're all gonna wake up at at least four o'clock tomorrow. 

Sean [00:37:05] Oh, at least, you know me. 

Michael [00:37:08] Well, remember, it's one day at a time. You don't have to do it every single day. Don't even think about that, just today. I'm getting up at 4:00 a.m.. 

Sean [00:37:15] Perfect. Thank you so much. I appreciate all of that advice. 

Michael [00:37:18] Absolutely. And again, I appreciate you letting me share my story. Obviously, it's been quite a bit of a journey. But it is something that is deeply personal to me. You know, and I love knowing that maybe it can have an impact, you know, for someone else who may be struggling with similar issues and make them feel... Not alone. You know that there are other people and again, no one story is the same, but to know that there are people out there who have struggled, and I would not say I've overcome by any means, you know. There are things I struggle with every single day. But when I look back on where I was at 17 and how I've built who I am today at 34 years old, I mean, it's really kind of remarkable. And I am very proud of that. You know, and there again, there have been many times, even recently that I was not proud of at all. But learning from those experiences and learning from shared communities and then being able to share my story for that next community or that next person... That's really what the human experience is about, in my opinion. 

Sean [00:38:26] Thank you so much, Michael, everything you've said today has been so useful, and we see this common theme throughout everything you've said, you know, from empathy in everything you do to gratitude to those positive routines that you do. And it's just really great to kind of see that consistency throughout, and how we can provide that information to people so that they can, you know, use that as practical wisdom for their own lives and implement it everyday, even if it's just one little step at a time. 

McKenna [00:38:54] Thank you so much, Michael. That was great. 

Michael [00:38:56] All right. Bye, guys. Thank you so much.