Episode Transcript

Bola Sokunbi

McKenna: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to Health: It's Personal. We are so thrilled to share with you today our conversation with author, financial wiz and CEO of Clever Girl Finance Bola Sokunbi. She talks financial education, investing and the importance of learning from your mistakes early on to grow into the amazing, financially savvy person you've always wanted to be. [00:00:21][21.4]

Karen: [00:00:22] Yeah, I love that she celebrates learning from your mistakes because I've made a lot of financial mistakes in my very few years. [00:00:30][7.2]

Sean: [00:00:32] Yeah, it was really inspirational and I loved how we talked about how a lot of resources out there will use those big words and jargon. And a lot of that is just to kind of sound fancy or sound like they know what they're talking about. But in reality, it's really straightforward and simple. And a lot of her work revolves around making it accessible for people and just kind of giving us that real glimpse into how finances truly work. [00:00:57][24.9]

McKenna: [00:00:58] That's why we love her books so much. They are really accessible. They're not dumbed down. And in this podcast we are all about fighting stigmas. And I think there is a stigma attached to obviously women learning and talking about finances and also this idea of simplifying the conversation on finances and seeing that as maybe dumbed down. [00:01:23][24.5]

Sean: [00:01:23] When in reality it's just very smart. [00:01:25][1.7]

McKenna: [00:01:27] It's so much smarter. [00:01:28][1.1]

Karen: [00:01:29] Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I think is really important is educating yourself. And sometimes when we feel uncomfortable or when we've been talked down to in a certain realm, we don't necessarily feel great about putting ourselves out there. So we bury our heads and don't find the information that we need. But when you realize how simple it is, investing in yourself and investing in your education first can make a really big difference in your confidence. And like with many things that we do, confidence is key. [00:01:59][30.2]

Sean: [00:01:59] And I think that's with so many topics that we learn about, too, we can always feel a little, I don't know, guilt or embarrassment when we don't understand it. So that makes us less likely to learn more about it or to seek help or ask ask questions. And I think it's so important to just dive in and as Bola said, just kind of start at the beginning and start learning even with free resources. [00:02:23][24.3]

Karen: [00:02:25] I didn't realize that you could invest with just five dollars or ten dollars. And I think a lot of people think you have to have tons of money in order to start investing. And she assured us that people that have a lot of wealth started that exact way. That made me feel really excited about educating myself and trying it. [00:02:48][22.8]

McKenna: [00:02:48] Yeah. And like she mentioned, turning on a financial news station and hearing all of that jargon that we're talking about. It has just kind of secured this idea over the last, you know, forever that investing in the stock market is not for the everyday person. It's kind of something set aside for people who really know what they're doing with this large amount of money or that's how it feels. You know, it feels really daunting. And so she's trying to shift the conversation. And I think that's so great. [00:03:23][34.4]

Karen: [00:03:23] Yeah. So reading her book, I'm obsessed because she explains things that I never really understood very simply, like really all the concepts related to investing and the stock market and what those words mean that you hear on those scary stations. Right. And it sort of inspired us as a family to think about making some mistakes and investing and in trying it out. So the four of us are going to start a small account and start investing and maybe turn it into a little competition or cheering each other on type situation where we keep learning and keep growing and and see how each other does. And I think it'll be interesting to to see how each of our investments go different directions based on who we are as people, what our comfortability level is with taking risk. Right. And also choosing those investments that we find interesting. Or so it'll be interesting to see how each of us does and who makes a bigger return. [00:04:29][66.2]

Sean: [00:04:30] I think it's a really great way to connect with all the knowledge that you've gained from any of the materials you've consumed or courses you've taken, books you've read. But, you know, at a certain point you have to kind of apply it by just taking that five dollars or whatever you have and just start, you know, get started with it. I think that's a really great idea. [00:04:48][18.4]

McKenna: [00:04:49] Bola decided to write her book. It kind of spiraled after she was looking for books on finance and she realized that they were all written by men. And so they were kind of written in this language that wasn't accessible or clear, and so she started looking for a book about finances for women, and she noticed that the number one New York Times best selling book about finances for women was written by a man as well. It reminded me of just the other day I found this video from the 50s, I think 1954, and it was called something like the questions that teenage girls have in the 50s. I was like, oh, this will be so great. It seemed like it was something that was on the TV at the time. I think it was sponsored by Seventeen Magazine or something like that. [00:05:44][55.1]

McKenna: [00:05:45] So I was excited to see some girls talking on the TV and saying what their interests were hoping that this program was promoting young women's voices. And I was so excited and so curious. And so I clicked on it and it was video of teenage girls doing the things that they were, you know, quote unquote interested in. But it was a male narrator saying, saying these are the questions that young girls are asking. They wonder what color they should paint their nails. And then it was like a video of a teenage girl painting her nails. And that was like and they also wonder how to impress boys? And then they like guys. And it was yeah, it was just this guy saying all this stuff. And they're like they also wonder, like what the new style is, what kind of dress they should wear to various functions. And then it showed a video of a teenage girl, you know, picking out a dress in a shop. And it was like, what? Where are the girls? Yeah. So I assumed that they had girls write in questions, but it was completely spoken from this man's point of view. And it was so like kind of mind blowing. [00:07:00][75.4]

Sean: [00:07:02] Yeah. And all of that is kind of as we talked about today, to sell things. And that we I think one of the biggest things that we can take away from this whole experience is that making mistakes is OK, especially if we learn from them, looking at them as opportunities to kind of grow. And it just kind of reminded me of our situation when my dad passed away and we used the life insurance money to pay off the house that they had bought together. And that was great. We were financially set. [00:07:32][29.5]

Sean: [00:07:32] But then as we talked about with certain financial advisors, if you're not really educated and ready yourself for what you're getting into, my mom got into a situation where it was the entire portfolio was tied up in real estate and then 2008 happened. And so everything was lost, including the house which was tied up in all of that. So and it's just so it's like a double hurt because it was like, well, you know, that was part of him, too. And so it was more than just finances that we invested and seeing her grow from that experience, learn and help us through financial situations in the future because of those experiences that she learned from instead of letting it shut her down is really powerful. I think. So even in the darkest and biggest loss in your life, you can still find those lessons. And there is light at the end of that tunnel, too, like we talked about. [00:08:24][52.1]

Karen: [00:08:26] I love that you said that, Sean, because it's almost like your dad gave you all an opportunity to learn together as well. So that lesson was there and it was hard to go through. Look at what you and Noah have in advance of that. [00:08:41][15.4]

Sean: [00:08:41] And we got through it despite being slightly homeless for a little while and all that wild stuff. [00:08:46][4.9]

Karen: [00:08:47] Despite being slightly homeless. [00:08:48][1.4]

Sean: [00:08:49] Yeah, we pushed through that. [00:08:50][1.2]

Karen: [00:08:51] Yeah. Oh, yeah. [00:08:54][2.9]

Sean: [00:08:54] It's it's tough. But yeah, like you said, it brought us together and helped us learn and grow and hopefully we don't you know, it's especially as millennials it's like, wow, we've been through some things. So hopefully the future is a little better for younger folks. [00:09:09][14.6]

Karen: [00:09:10] Well, I love to that McKenna and Max can learn from the mistakes that Scott and I have made along the way, you know, plenty of them. So it's good to see those. And I like to that. She said mistakes are not failures, but just stepping stones. And so, you know, providing the stepping stones for the people that you love so that they can make their own mistakes. But it's just it's like compounding interest. That's compounding knowledge. You know. [00:09:38][27.8]

Sean: [00:09:39] I love that, too, because my mom would, you know, give advice, but she wouldn't, I don't know, force or demand or push us in any direction. She would just say this is probably the best thing to do. But you definitely need to figure it out on your own. [00:09:50][11.7]

Karen: [00:09:51] Yeah. [00:09:51][0.0]

Sean: [00:09:52] So advice. But... [00:09:53][1.2]

McKenna: [00:09:55] I use this analogy recently with mom, but I think of it as. Mom and dad set me up with all of the this knowledge and wisdom and opportunities that they didn't have when they were growing up, so I get to kind of sit on their shoulders or stand on sort of this this pedestal of knowledge and information and opportunities that they've prepared for me. And then even though when I'm standing on flat ground, we're equals, I get to reach a little higher than they got to. And that I feel really lucky. [00:10:29][34.4]

Sean: [00:10:29] So cool. [00:10:29][0.0]

McKenna: [00:10:30] Yeah, imagine how high Bola's kids will reach. [00:10:34][4.0]

Sean: [00:10:35] Yeah. [00:10:35][0.0]

Karen: [00:10:36] Right. [00:10:36][0.0]

McKenna: [00:10:38] Well everyone, we're so glad you're here. And our financial series. So grab a cup of tea and enjoy. [00:10:42][4.4]

Podcast Intro: [00:10:45] Health is harmony. When you're aligned to everything you believe in is when you feel that harmony and you feel peace. Trying to get to the root cause of things. There is just so much to learn. Can you be present in those moments in your life that mean the most. Because health, it's personal. [00:11:00][15.4]

Karen: [00:11:02] Welcome, Bola. We're so glad to have you here. You're a certified financial educator, a money expert and CEO, best selling author and founder of Clever Girl finance. Your goal is to help others navigate through the murky waters of finance and wealth management. You provide workshops, online courses, podcast interviews, YouTube videos, blog posts, all free. And the books that you've written are filled with practical wisdom and advice where you share your own mistakes, which I love. With the goal of helping others, we're so obsessed with your work. [00:11:34][31.6]

Bola: [00:11:34] Thank you so much for the opportunity to be here. [00:11:36][1.9]

McKenna: [00:11:37] Yeah, absolutely. And so we've kind of established that your work is so amazing and you're amazing. Would you mind telling us your motivation behind Clever Girl Finance and how it's evolved over the years? [00:11:47][10.6]

Bola: [00:11:48] Yeah, so my motivation behind Clever Girl Finance is really seeing women succeed. And I think in this day and age, in today's world, women are at this advantage and disadvantage. Advantage in the sense that we are more empowered than we ever were before. There is this gender wage gap. But if we look at earnings of our mothers and our grandmothers, we're making more money than they did. We have more choices but disadvantage in the sense that we are being impacted by this gap of knowledge that wasn't necessarily transferred to us generationally, which impacts our financial wellness. [00:12:29][40.8]

Bola: [00:12:30] And by that, I mean, if, you know, I'm just going to take one particular scenario. But if you look back to your grandmother's generation, for example, in that day and age was not the woman's place to talk about money. Right. If you take your your standard two parent household, the dad would go out to work. The mom is home. When the dad comes home, he brings his sons over the dinner table. They talk about business. The mom and the daughters clear up the dishes and they go to the kitchen. They talk about recipes and everybody has a great recipe from their grandmother. But I think it's also important that in addition to those great recipes, we also have incredible financial knowledge. [00:13:03][33.6]

Bola: [00:13:03] And women are, in many instances, anchors of their home. That's where all the knowledge comes from, especially with young children. And so I'm just motivated to help women succeed as we make strides to teach ourselves how to negotiate. Given that this gender wage gap is impacting on us and also leads to an investment wage gap or an investment gap, teaching women to be financially confident so that they can invest more, because we are good at investing when we invest, so that we can have more money for our future selves when we get to retirement. So I'm just really, really motivated by helping women succeed. And when women succeed, our next generation succeeds because we're teaching our children, both boys and girls, about what we learn. So it's so incredibly important. [00:13:47][44.0]

Karen: [00:13:48] Yes, it's so important for us to teach our boys and our girls. And since women, like you said, are often the anchors of the household, hearing financial advice from them holds more weight. And also reminds us that these discussions aren't just about business, but about other aspects of life as well. [00:14:06][18.1]

Sean: [00:14:07] Your first book, Clever Girl Finance: Ditch Debt, Save Money and Build Real Wealth, is to get the attention of women willing to educate themselves about money practices and to change their mindset about financial responsibility and the possibility of building wealth. Why is this such a pivotal moment for someone? [00:14:25][18.0]

Bola: [00:14:27] I think it is such a pivotal moment for someone to realize that they can do something like adjust their mindset, even if they don't have a ton of money right now that can enable them to build wealth into the future because it helps them imagine the possibility. But in order for you to imagine the possibility of what you could accomplish in your life, you have to be able to believe that you can do it. And the financial skill is it's what it is, the way the budget or the different ways the budget don't change. The fact that you have to save and invest to build wealth doesn't change. The fact that you have to pay off debt and spend less than you earn doesn't change. It can be packaged up in different ways and presented to you. This the financial skill set is the skill set. It is what it is. Right. [00:15:13][46.4]

Bola: [00:15:14] But the biggest challenge people face is self. It is their mindset. It's what they believe they can or cannot accomplish. And a lot of this can be very deep. It can be tied to how you are raised about money, bad experiences you have with money, mistakes that you've made. But if someone can give themself that grace to be intentional about, OK, I don't have a million dollars, I have one hundred thousand dollars in debt, I don't have this and that. But you know what? I'm going to take the first step. I'm going to learn about how to create a plan to buy this. I'm going to learn about the process to budget. I'm going to take what I learned and implement it the next time I earn some money. [00:15:49][35.5]

Bola: [00:15:50] Just being able to get themselves to that point where they're able to start taking small progress can make a huge difference in the way they're able to move forward and also what they're able to achieve. So just being open to the fact that money is not difficult - doesn't have to be. You can learn it. It's not rocket science. [00:16:10][19.7]

Karen: [00:16:11] Yeah. Yeah. Feels like it sometimes, you know. [00:16:14][2.8]

Bola: [00:16:14] I know. And the media doesn't help you. You turn on your standard CNBC or whatever news channel and you hear Jim Cramer yelling at you or you hear financial topics that are interesting but really have nothing to do with the fact that, you know, you don't you don't have a savings account yet. But you have a job, right? [00:16:34][19.5]

Karen: [00:16:35] Yeah this doesn't relate to me! [00:16:35][0.0]

Bola: [00:16:36] Yeah, exactly. So it's it's our responsibility because no one else is going to do it for us. But I think we have to give ourself the grace to say, OK, I've made mistakes. I'm going to look at those mistakes and learn from them. I don't know what I don't know. But that doesn't mean I should be embarrassed. Right. I'm going to pick up a finance book. I'm going to listen to a podcast and learn. I'm going to take my time and do my best. And I know that I'm still going to make mistakes because everybody in the world makes mistakes. There's no perfect human being, but I'm going to continue to assess the lessons and keep moving forward. [00:17:03][26.9]

Karen: [00:17:04] That's such great advice. I love that. [00:17:05][1.6]

McKenna: [00:17:06] Yeah, absolutely. And some of the strategies that we've read about in your books for making an impact on your financial future can include tracking your spending, defining your values, setting goals. How do these work in tandem to transform habits? And what are these strategies that you see really making an impact in people's lives? [00:17:26][20.7]

Bola: [00:17:27] Yeah, so those are basically actions tracking your spending, setting your goals, defining your values, creating your financial plan. Those are all actions that help you keep your money top of mind with anything you want to accomplish in your life, you have to have it constantly on top of your mind, right. Like when you go to college, you're constantly thinking about your grades and your classes because your end goal is to get that degree. And you go to those classes every day. You work on studying every day so you can keep your grades up so that after the four years or five years or whatever the timeframe is, you're able to get that degree that leads you to the purpose of starting your business, getting a job, et cetera, et cetera. [00:18:03][35.8]

Bola: [00:18:03] And so that's an example of an intention being top of mind. And so all these actions help you keep your money top of mind and help they help you stay focused on the steps that you need to take in order for you to succeed financially, financially. And when it comes to habit, habits are formed from consistently doing something over time - repetition and by repeatedly saying, OK, I'm going to log in for two minutes every day to check my bank account. I'm going to review my budget at the end of the week to make sure that I'm tracking my spending. I'm going to go over my goals once a month to see how I'm doing towards them or just them based on life changes. That's you taking consistent action over time and building habits that can change the way you operate as it relates to your finances. [00:18:43][40.3]

McKenna: [00:18:45] That's a great point. And I think that sometimes, too, when we wake up in the morning, we might set intentions for the day and write down in a journal or something what we like to accomplish in the day or for the week. And sometimes we forget to say, OK, I need to remember what my financial values are. I'm not spending money this month or, you know, I'm sticking to my savings plan or things like that. Like keeping it in your mind all this time, I think would be good to. [00:19:11][26.3]

Bola: [00:19:12] Exactly. And I always tell people who struggle that find ways to make it easy for yourself. And that could mean Post-it notes on your bathroom mirror, in front of your computer, change your screensaver to be one of to be your main goal, your pursuing find ways or set... you know, one of the things I like to do is set annoying reminders on my phone that come up as alarms. And, you know, you can change the text on your alarm on the phone. So so it's like check your budget, check your budget, check for budget. [00:19:39][26.3]

Karen: [00:19:39] Stop nagging me! [00:19:39][0.0]

McKenna: [00:19:44] Oh, that's so great. I love that so much. And then something else I wanted to ask you about, too, in relation to kind of setting good positive habits, I guess. So you recently spoke to Ryan and Kelly about automating your finances. Can you exlain the value in this? [00:19:58][13.8]

Bola: [00:20:00] Yeah, so automating your finances is part of building habit, and like I said, the whole idea is to make it easy for yourself. So a lot of people struggle with self-discipline and self discipline is something that's difficult to build because it's something that has to constantly be maintained. And in today's world, it's very difficult to, especially when it comes to money, to overcome certain types of temptation. So social media, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, you go on a website, you go on your phone browser, you're constantly being hit with advertisements and marketing, indirectly, directly influencers. [00:20:39][39.2]

Bola: [00:20:40] There's like I think I read something somewhere that there's like ten thousand points where a person can be marketed to on a given day. That's a lot for one human being to deal with. Right. And so knowing that all this temptation is constantly in your face and doesn't matter how incredibly self disciplined you are, if you love chocolate and I'm constantly holding a chocolate cake in front of your face at one point or the other, you're going to cave and lick the icing. So by automating your finances, it helps you get your money designated to where it needs to go before you give yourself the chance to spend it and fall into temptation. [00:21:13][33.4]

Bola: [00:21:14] This means if you have a savings goal and your money is automated before you get a chance to have those mental debates about should I save, should I not save, should I buy it, should I not buy it? The money's already gone to where it needs to go and you don't have the opportunity to spend it anymore. If you have debt to pay off and you automate your debt payment before you take that money and spend it on something else, that does not matter. The money has already gone to paying off your debt. And so studies show that automating your finances help you save more on average because you're doing it consistently over time, every single time. Whereas as individuals, if we say, OK, I'm going to decide when I put money into savings, every time you get a paycheck, there's always going to be something that comes up. It's either going to be a new dress, dinner with your friends, a bill you didn't expect. Something will always come up that will find ways to help your money slip through your fingers. [00:22:00][45.9]

Bola: [00:22:00] And that's what money does best. It slips through your fingers. But by automating your money and putting it into a separate bank account for savings, putting it towards your bill payments, then you're able to save more. And this is not that you can never buy anything. It's that you know what? Maybe you also have a separate account that is your guilt free splurge account and you can automate a certain amount of money every time you get paid that goes into this account. And so if you see something that you actually have to have, you know that if you spend money from your splurge account, it doesn't affect any other goals and you can do it guilt free. [00:22:30][29.8]

Sean: [00:22:31] I love that idea. [00:22:32][0.5]

Karen: [00:22:32] Yeah, that's brilliant. What a positive way to automate. Automate so that you can have a bit of fun too. [00:22:38][5.6]

Bola: [00:22:39] Yeah, I'm huge on fun. Like life is short and human beings thrive on emotions or a lot of our positive emotions are tied to wins. Right. For someone who's trying to save a lot of money or trying to pay off a lot of debt, it can seem like there was there's no end. There was no light at the end of the tunnel. And when you cannot see the end, it can be very demotivating. And then you start to the beginning is always exhilarating because it's like, yeah, I've created this new plan. I'm going to pay off all this debt. But as you start to go through the motions, you start to have all these. It's that little devil on your shoulder. What's the point? The interest is going to get you. Nobody in your family has ever paid off their debt. All your friends are broke. [00:23:17][38.3]

Bola: [00:23:17] You start to get all these demotivating things. And if you can't really see any fruits of your labor, why should you continue? So I always tell people it's OK to have a treat or splurge within reason that keeps you motivated to keep working towards your goals. Right. So, for example, if you pay off five hundred dollars in debt this month on top of your minimum payment, yes, you can get the Starbucks coffee. You deserve that. Right. It makes you happy. Right. As opposed to getting mad at your debt because you can't buy Starbucks. And then one day you go on a binge that you buy Starbucks every day for breakfast, lunch and dinner and you don't pay any more debt. [00:23:54][36.6]

Karen: [00:23:56] Just to get back at it. I'll teach you money. [00:23:57][0.6]

Bola: [00:23:57] Exactly. [00:23:57][0.0]

Karen: [00:24:00] You dedicated your first book to your mom and you share a story about how she impacted your financial story. Would you mind telling us about her and how she supported you on the path that kind of led you to where you are? [00:24:12][11.9]

Bola: [00:24:13] Yes, and my mom has always been very much about female empowerment. And she would always tell me that it's important for me to stand on my own two feet. Doesn't matter who I marry, I need to have my own money. It doesn't matter what I decide to do in life. I need to be able to give myself options by having my own money. And my mom got married very young and she didn't have a college degree, had her high school diploma and, you know, very limited in what she could do. So she was a stay at home mom, raising her kids and she started to see things happening with her friends that she didn't really like friends trying to leave bad relationships or wanting to get divorced or losing a spouse and just not knowing anything about the family finances and being stuck with no options and no money. And you just never wanted to find herself in that position, so after her four kids, my mom went to get a college degree in her 30s, got a masters degree and started working and saving money and just creating financial security for herself to the point where she was able to contribute to our household finances. [00:25:13][60.4]

Bola: [00:25:14] And when my dad went through a financial downturn, she was also able to step in as a breadwinner for our family. And so she is someone that I really look up to because I got to see her consoling friends in our living room when I was a child. I got to see friends spending the night in our house with their kids because they had nowhere else to go when they have, like, a husband that was beating them or whatever it was. So, you know, she's definitely supportive of this journey and just women being able to give themselves options so that they're not stuck in situations that they can't get out of. [00:25:47][33.0]

Karen: [00:25:47] Yeah, that's so great. She must be so proud of the work that you're doing. It's like an extension of what she taught you. So we love your book about how to grow your money and some of the concepts in there. I never really understood completely. But you explain them in simple terms and in bite sized pieces so that the reader feels more confident. How are you able to provide this education in such an attainable way? [00:26:12][24.5]

Bola: [00:26:13] I think for me it's based on my experience. I remember graduating from college and getting my first big job in New York, earning fifty four thousand dollars before taxes in New York City. That was nothing, but I thought it was a lot and I wanted to learn about my finances. And I went into the bookstore and I picked up all these books. No offense, Sean, but they're written by white male guys and we're just a bunch of jargon like stuff that like, do you really need to use all these words to just describe this simple concept? Why does it have to be so complicated? I remember telling myself, you know what, I'm going to go find a personal finance book for women because I don't like the way these guys are writing about this book. And lo and behold, the best selling New York Times book on personal finance for women was written by a man! [00:26:54][41.9]

Karen: [00:26:57] Oh, my gosh, and you're like, stop it! [00:26:59][2.4]

Bola: [00:27:00] And so for me, like, I was like, no, I'm going to buy this book. It was a good book... but I realized that I'm going to take these concepts and figure out how to put them in my own words that make sense for me. And I would talk to my friends about it all the time. And so, again, it goes back to the whole idea of money does not need to be complicated. You don't need to explain investing with a bunch of jargon. You don't need to explain opening a savings account with a bunch of jargon. It's not necessary. Right. And by making it simplified, you lower the barrier to entry because many, many people feel embarrassed because they don't know what a budget is. But who taught us? So schools are not teaching us that. Right. [00:27:36][36.1]

Bola: [00:27:37] But there is this whole idea of shame. Shame on you that you don't know what a budget is. Shame on you that you don't know how to invest in Bitcoin. Shame on you that you don't know how to blah, blah, blah, like all the nonsensical stuff. And so my goal has always been make it approachable, make it easy to do in a small amount of time, make people feel good about wanting to improve their finances because many people are coming from really difficult financial situations that don't feel good. Right. And so how can you make them feel empowered and good about where they are now and the progress that they make? [00:28:08][30.7]

Bola: [00:28:08] And it's by making the education attainable. It's about making it relatable. It's about making it fun. It's about making it easy to understand. And so that's the idea behind all the content that we create a credible finance from the books to the courses to the articles that we write, it's about being simplified because you don't need to know jargon. You don't need to use just nonsensical terms to build wealth. It doesn't have to be complicated. [00:28:32][23.9]

Karen: [00:28:34] That's not dumbing it down. [00:28:35][1.1]

Bola: [00:28:35] It's not it's not dumbing it down at all. It's making it approachable. Right. Would you like nobody wants to get finance lessons on CNBC.com. No, no offense to them, but if you listen to their news, it's a bit of a derivative bla bla bla bla bla bla. It's so boring! [00:28:55][20.3]

Sean: [00:28:56] Yeah, yeah. [00:28:57][0.4]

McKenna: [00:28:57] No, a hundred percent. [00:28:57][0.1]

Karen: [00:28:58] I just bought two books for my son and he's a teenage boy and he wants to learn about finances and investing. And I love your books so much and I think it would be perfect for him. But it's called Clever Girl, so, you know-. [00:29:09][11.0]

Bola: [00:29:10] He can still read it! [00:29:10][0.9]

Karen: [00:29:11] I know he could, of course. Yeah. So I bought him books related to, like for teens because I told him, I said, Max, he's like, I don't need it dumbed down. And I'm like, well, of course you don't. But you have different circumstances. You don't have a job yet. What you need is different. But then I purchased the books for him and I opened it up and I'm like, oh my gosh, Clever Girl Finance is so much more accessible and easy to read and easy to understand than these books for teenage kids. [00:29:42][30.8]

Bola: [00:29:43] I think there's this whole you know, again, it also comes down to who is right writing the bulk of the book. Like, I motivate everyone I can every woman I can to write a book. Because if you look at the financial landscape, most of the books over the space, especially the big best sellers, are all written by men, right? And whether people will want to accept it or not, people write based on what how they've been taught and how they've been educated. Right. [00:30:08][24.6]

Bola: [00:30:08] And there's this whole idea that if something is simplified, then it cannot be true. That kind of leads back to what your son said about I don't want it to be dumbed down. But again, money is not complicated as much as the media and the men in financial institutions try to make it this complex topic. It is not complicated and it's not about something being dumbed down. Right. It's about getting you to understand and feel confident to take the action. If that's going to help me build wealth, then bring on down the dumbed down information! But that's not what it's about. [00:30:44][36.1]

Karen: [00:30:45] Is it, to make us feel less than, you know? So that we don't want to know about it? Is it like a secret society? [00:30:52][6.4]

McKenna: [00:30:54] Well, in all that jargon, is is like a false sense of, you know, elitism or something. You know, it's like. Exactly. It's it's not that financial knowledge is difficult to understand. It's that certain people maybe aren't open for it to being for everyone. [00:31:12][17.6]

Bola: [00:31:13] I mean, look at your standard fine print on a loan document. It's so much jargon that people are like, I can't read this, but then without being able to decipher it, without understanding it in simple terms, you- so many people sign themselves up for loans with terrible interest rates, terrible compounding agreements. And it's like, oh my God, I didn't understand that fine print because it was so fine, first of all. [00:31:37][24.1]

McKenna: [00:31:38] Yeah, yeah. [00:31:39][0.7]

Karen: [00:31:41] You need the biggest magnifying glass ever. [00:31:43][1.7]

Bola: [00:31:43] And second of all, it was a bunch of jargon by design that you feel overwhelmed. You know what, I'm just going to sign this, you know, and it's a lot of it is by design, unfortunately. [00:31:54][10.6]

Sean: [00:31:55] And we're firm believers that if you can explain it simply, then you truly understand it. So I think that that fits in perfectly. So it's not dumbing down at all and definitely makes things more accessible, which is so important. My partner grew up in poverty and we were recently having this exact conversation because he's in grad school for an engineering degree that's turned into a business degree, apparently. And so there are all these business courses with all the jargon and it's it's so tortuous. And we keep making fun of all these terms and how, like, it really is making people feel like I'm better than you because I know all these fancy terms that are for such simple concepts that everything that you've said is so inspiring to me because it's just, you know, we need to make it more accessible. It's not dumbing down at all. It's just smart, I think. [00:32:44][49.6]

Bola: [00:32:45] If I cannot understand what you explained to me, what are you really trying to sell me? [00:32:49][3.7]

Sean: [00:32:49] Yes. Yeah. You know, one of my favorite things in life, one of my favorite things in life to get through is figuring out how I can learn from mistakes. And you believe that mistakes are valuable lessons. And learning from those mistakes of others and ourselves can put us ahead on our own journey for success. What are some examples of this that you've seen on your journey and is there anything that you wish you had done differently? [00:33:14][25.4]

Bola: [00:33:15] So, you know, I've made so many mistakes. We could have a whole other podcasts on this, on the topic of mistakes, I'm sure! Everybody has to- mistakes are part of life. They're part of money. Right? Anyone who is telling you, come to me. I've never made a mistake. I can teach you - run away! [00:33:31][15.7]

Sean: [00:33:31] Yeah! [00:33:31][0.0]

Bola: [00:33:31] But for me, you know, like I think like you said, mistakes are part of the learning process. You have to be able to make the mistake to see what went wrong and to be able to assess it. And I don't really consider mistakes are not failures unless you decide you're not learning anything from your mistakes are learning opportunities and they're stepping stones that lead you to your success. The next time you try it out there, they're stepping stones that could help you make some decisions as to what you're not going to do again and what you're going to continue to do and things like that. [00:34:00][28.7]

Bola: [00:34:01] And so, you know, I've made so many mistakes. I remember when I was first trying to figure out the first mistake, going into my first job and being explained about how the 401k worked. But again, with so much jargon that I was like, I don't understand is why would you pay me, then I pay you back. In a 401k. But that's not what it was about. But it was just so much jargon. So I didn't start investing. All I did was invest enough to get the free match and I left the rest of the alone when I could have afforded to put more money in that. So that's a mistake. [00:34:35][34.0]

Bola: [00:34:36] Another mistake was trying to figure out how to invest because I had gone into financial planners office, and as opposed to educate me about investing, he was so worried about where I got the money from, how did I have it if I was single, blah, blah, blah. And so I went out and started investing, and you know, I would buy and sell low - and panic! When the stock market went down and I just didn't understand the concept of long term investing and that the market went through swings, and so that was a learning experience for me, all those mistakes, because now I'm so confident as an investor, and I know the type of investments that work for me. I know how, what my timelines are. I know my risk tolerance, all of that stuff. [00:35:17][41.1]

Bola: [00:35:18] And then obviously another mistake that I talk about often was just saving a lot of money and feeling like I deserve something and buying a lot of different handbags that I just never, never, ever used. Not that I have anything against handbags or beating yourself up. Again, going back to what I said and doing it within reason. It has to make sense. And my handbag habit was not making sense because they were expensive purses that I was not using. So the cost per wear was exactly the price I paid. [00:35:46][28.6]

Karen: [00:35:48] And they did not appreciate. [00:35:49][1.0]

Bola: [00:35:50] Well, a couple of them did appreciate, but they were still, because they were designer handbags, but they were still a mistake because even though over, let's say, five or six years, the price of the bag may have doubled, I did some online calculation that if I had taken that same amount of money, I had spent all on all those handbags and I had put them in the stock market, I would have made more than one hundred or two hundred percent of my money back compared to what would I would have earned trying to sell a pre-owned bag online. [00:36:18][28.0]

Sean: [00:36:21] I also kind of related to this, but I had a friend on Twitter who just recently shared with everyone that they tell their kids error is a very important part of the trial and error process. [00:36:31][9.6]

Bola: [00:36:32] It's going to hurt, but it's worth it. [00:36:35][3.2]

Karen: [00:36:36] Yeah. [00:36:36][0.0]

Sean: [00:36:37] So you also explain that using a financial adviser is one strategy, but you also advise that educating ourselves can make a bigger impact and protect us from those losses that we've discussed. How is understanding and being in control of our investments a key to this success? [00:36:54][17.1]

Bola: [00:36:55] So I have nothing against financial advisers, but I feel that people need to be very mindful when they work with financial advisors because they're human beings. And a financial adviser cannot read your mind. You need to have your clear goals and objectives, need to have the things that you're working for. You need to be able to articulate to the financial advisor what your risk tolerance is. And the only way you can really articulate what you want best for yourself is if you understand what is being presented to you by the financial advisor. So if the financial advisor says, you know what, we're going to put your money in bonds and stocks or index funds or let's do some real estate, you need to be able to understand what these investments mean, what is the risk? Right. And not just put your full trust in a financial adviser because they don't they can't read your mind. [00:37:42][46.7]

Bola: [00:37:43] And sometimes even when you articulate your goals, because they're working with so many other clients... it kind of gets past them. I have a friend who fully trusted a financial adviser to invest her money without just having any knowledge or insight as to what was happening. And they lost 70 percent of their portfolio in the 2008 recession that they couldn't recover from. That's a huge deal, especially if you have a timeline or you're approaching retirement or you are saving for kid's college and they're going to school next year. That's a huge hit. You don't necessarily have that time to wait around for the market to recover. That's a huge loss. [00:38:16][33.3]

Bola: [00:38:17] And so, being able to have a conversation with your financial advisor, as opposed to your advisor just talking at you, can make all the difference. And you know, you work so hard for your money that by understanding, you're able to build financial confidence and be in control of your money because you know what's happening. You can say, no, financial adviser, I don't like that approach. I don't like that strategy. You know what? This is my risk tolerance. I'm conservative, I want to be conservative this year. How can we work through that? Can I see the plan? It just helps you become more informed and more confident about what's happening with your money. [00:38:51][34.6]

Karen: [00:38:52] Yeah, and sometimes they have a one size fits all type of strategy or they have a strategy that they think works. But because you're an individual, you have to let them know what works for you. [00:39:01][9.4]

Bola: [00:39:02] And if you don't convey that to them, there's no way for them to know. Right. [00:39:04][2.6]

Karen: [00:39:05] So what are some misconceptions that people have about investing? [00:39:07][2.7]

Bola: [00:39:09] I think there are so many, so people think they need to have a lot of money to invest. People think that investing is gambling. I could just go to the slots at Vegas or Atlantic City and make more money. People think that investing is only for rich people. Investing is too complicated. People try to time the market when it comes to investing. And they think that if they invest that six, eight, eight a.m. and they sell at three p.m., then they're going to get all this money. There's a lot of misconceptions about investing, but I think the most common one is that people think they need a lot of money to invest and people think investing is gambling. [00:39:48][38.9]

Karen: [00:39:48] OK, so what would be an appropriate amount of money to start investing and what would you recommend to someone who's ready to start? [00:39:55][6.5]

Bola: [00:39:56] So you can start investing with zero dollars. The first investment is investing in your education, and this is going through a local library and picking up a book on Investing 101 and learning how investing works. That's going to cost you nothing. You already paid your taxpayer dollars for that library. Get the book! Right? [00:40:12][15.9]

Karen: [00:40:15] I'd recommend Clever Girl Finance: Grow Your Money. [00:40:17][2.3]

Bola: [00:40:17] And it's at the library! But if your library doesn't have it, you can ask them for it. Thank you, Karen! So that's number one. And then to open a brokerage account in today's world, you can open one with zero dollars. So many brokerage firms are offering zero minimum requirement in order to get started, which means if you have a dollar, five dollars, you can make your first investment. And so once you've educated yourself, it gives you more guidance as to where to get started. Right. What kind of investment do you want to make? And education helps you minimize... The idea of investing meaning gambling. [00:40:52][34.9]

Bola: [00:40:52] A gamble is when something is based on chance, right? The more insights you have, the less of a gamble it is. Instead, you have to be patient and wait it out. So if you know that you have no idea about cryptocurrency, you don't know what a rate is. You don't know what an index fund is. Any money you put into those investments are a gamble because you're basing this on chance without any knowledge. Once you start to educate yourself on what index funds are. Oh, wow. They're an aggregation of stocks that track the US stock market and all these big companies that trade there. Now you have some insight. Oh, wow. Index funds have been shown to perform really well historically. And even over the last 10 years, the average performance has been about 10 percent. Wow! You now have some additional insight that can help you as you make your investment choices. [00:41:40][47.6]

Bola: [00:41:41] So education, I think, is the beginning and it helps dispel all those misconceptions. Investing is not a gamble, unless you make it a gamble and you operate based from no knowledge, and you don't need to be rich to invest, the way rich people got rich is by starting small and by investing consistently over time. So again, it's building that habit that every time I get paid, I'm going to put more money into an investment, whether it's in my personal education, whether it's in paying down debt, because that's also an investment. Right? Because every time you pay down your debt, you owe less in interest. And interest is typically what keeps people stuck in that cycle. [00:42:17][36.9]

Bola: [00:42:19] I'm going to put money into a savings account and invest in the emergency fund so that I don't have the leverage that if my car breaks down, I'm going to invest in my 401k plan so I can take advantage of free money my employer is offering. I'm going to invest in a brokerage account and start thinking long term about investing for my future self. So, you know, the misconceptions are there and they can create fear and cause you to stay stuck. But foundationally, when it comes to investing, educating yourself helps you build that confidence. And I always recommend that as the first way people get started when it comes to investing: educating yourself. [00:42:53][34.5]

Karen: [00:42:54] Yeah. You say in your book that when you're well prepared, you're better to recognize opportunities. What do you mean by that? [00:43:01][6.9]

Bola: [00:43:02] So be prepared is being able to have foresight of what to expect. Right. So, for example, let's take the stock market. If you look at the history of the stock market over the last hundred plus years, that it has been around. Right. And all you have to do is Google stock market chart. Historically, you will see that there are cycles. This is your basic economics where you see spikes in the stock market and you see dips and after every dip, you see another spike recovery and another dip. So we know that the stock market is going to go through cycles because the economy goes through cycles. Now we're in a pandemic. We're likely to see the repercussions after all these stimulus checks and PPE loans and all these things have been put in place on the other side when we start to get into the recovery. [00:43:45][43.0]

Bola: [00:43:46] So knowing that things are cyclical means that, okay, when the stock market is looking down, that might be an opportunity to buy more and save, and wait for the recovery to make earnings on our investment, knowing that historically, even though it's not a guarantee, the stock market always recovers. Right. So that is an idea of being prepared because it presents you with opportunities. You don't get scared. What typically happens with the masses is that when there's a stock market decline, everybody starts selling. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, the sky is falling. And then when the stock market is hot, everybody starts buying, but they're buying at the highest price. [00:44:22][36.1]

Bola: [00:44:22] It's kind of like with Bitcoin. A couple of days ago, everybody was on Instagram talking about buying Bitcoin, but it was at its all time high. Right. So what profit have you made? It's the people who bought it prior to the spike who have made the profit. So it's all about being, I always, I call it staying ready. Right. And the way you stay ready is by educating yourself again. [00:44:45][22.7]

Sean: [00:44:46] Don't just listen to a tweet from Elon Musk. [00:44:48][1.7]

Bola: [00:44:49] I know! He already made this investment 10 years ago. He's just telling you now. [00:44:53][4.1]

Sean: [00:44:53] So that he can make a profit right now. [00:44:55][1.7]

Bola: [00:44:55] Exactly. [00:44:55][0.0]

Karen: [00:44:58] All of this information is so great and so practical. We won't keep you too much longer. But we do like to ask, what do you reading or listening to right now that inspires you or lifts your spirits? [00:45:08][10.5]

Bola: [00:45:09] Reading, watching anything that takes me out of real world. The real world right now is a little crazy. [00:45:16][6.7]

Sean: [00:45:17] We need that. [00:45:17][0.2]

Bola: [00:45:18] I either need someone to slap me and wake me up. [00:45:20][1.9]

McKenna: [00:45:21] Yeah! [00:45:21][0.0]

Bola: [00:45:23] So I'm reading fiction. I'm actually reading a book called, I just started and it seems good, it's called The Girl with the Louding Voice. It's a novel. And then honestly, like listening has been a struggle. I used to listen to a lot of podcasts, but I'm home mostly. And I have my kids. And although everybody says, oh, this is a great time to listen to the podcast, you can catch up on, um yes, I have screaming twins running around. This is not the right time! So I'm not doing a lot of listening, unfortunately! I try to, when I'm driving 10 minutes to the grocery store, I have a book called How I Built This, but it's a 10 hour book and my grocery store is 10 minutes away. [00:46:01][38.2]

Karen: [00:46:03] So we'll check back in with you next year. [00:46:04][1.9]

Bola: [00:46:05] In about two years, yes, check in! [00:46:06][1.0]

McKenna: [00:46:08] I'm listening to Barack Obama's book right now, and it's 37 hours or something. So it's like, when, when is this really going to happen? I don't know. Well, this has been so lovely. [00:46:22][14.0]

Bola: [00:46:23] Oh, thank you for the opportunity to be here. This was a lot of fun. [00:46:25][2.5]

Karen: [00:46:25] Have an amazing day. [00:46:26][0.8]

Sean: [00:46:26] Yeah. Thank you. [00:46:27][0.5]

Bola: [00:46:27] Bye. [00:46:27][0.0]

Sean: [00:46:28] Bye. [00:46:28][0.0]

McKenna: [00:46:30] Thank you, everyone, for listening to this episode of Health: It's Personal. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts for bonus episodes and new releases every Wednesday. The Health: It's Personal podcast is produced by me, McKenna Uhde, and hosted with the Phronesis Health Initiative team, Karen Shively and Sean Tingle. Special thanks to portrait artist Alexander, musical contributor Bernie Ramke, and to our guests and experts for their kindness and bravery in sharing their stories each week. [00:46:58][27.4]

Karen: [00:46:58] Please listen, subscribe, engage and send us topics we can explore that would help you on your journey. [00:47:03][4.4]

Sean: [00:47:06] Because health, it's personal. [00:47:06][0.0]